The Pro engineer is very different to the pro desktop, but is also somehow similar in the way it works. I found it just takes a lot of practice, learning to use all the different features via on-line tutorials and then just keep tinkering. It is perfectly fine for students to understand but some will get it much quicker than others. Pro E provides a lot more flexibility than pro desktop and we used it to create the model of the rotary racer car. There are a few video tutorials you can download if you think they'll help you. You need to find the tutorial for the correct version of wildfire (it should tell you when you run Pro E ) There is a tutorial somewhere which our teacher gave us where you make an ipod which goes through all the features of how to use pro E including assembling the parts in an assembly, however i do not know where to find it.

http://www.heroturko.org/s/PROENGINEER%20WILDFIRE%204%200%20TUTORIAL%20AND%20MULTIMEDIA%20CD/

http://www.heroturko.org/s/PROENGINEER%20WILDFIRE%204%200%20TUTORIAL%20AND%20MULTIMEDIA%20CD/

good luck

i think you should forget both and use autocad inventor i found it fantastic after trying
very hard to use prodesktop and geting not getting anywere, you don't really have to learn how to use it, it just does what you want it to

I have to agree with JD210, I use Autodesk Invertor myself and, atleast for fairly basic designs, it's very easy to use and just about anyone can pick it up. But if you want to start making complex curves and awkward shapes then your gona start having problems.
Inventor is limited in what it can do with car design as it wasn't designed for that sort of application.
I've tried designing the bodywork for my new car on Inventor and I can get to a point where I can almost use the bodywork in the rest of my design and then Inventor throws a hissy fit when I try and shell it out or round off an edge. Which is why I keep a stress ball next to my computer.

Stewart

sorry Stewart thats what i ment i think they've used both names at different times :)

Thanks guys, combined with the lack of hits when I search for 'Greenpower Pro Engineer', that's a pretty big conclusive NO for PE (until I achieve IT-Geek status).
What are people's experiences of Solidworks???????
Brian

we have recently upgraded from ProD to solidworks and it's Brilliant!

it is much more intuitive than ProD and the students have all picked it up quickl with little more training then simply completing the tutorials.

the rendering looks great and orthographic drawings are simple to produce from design screens.

we haven't used the CAM machine from a solidworks design yet but i cant imagine its different to any other stl file.

the ONLY advantage ProD had over SW was the licence allowed the students to get the software at home.

hope that helps :)

stuart

sorry to hyjack, but has anyone else had problems wih prod8 freezing on win vista?

"the ONLY advantage ProD had over SW was the licence allowed the students to get the software at home."

Buying Solidworks as a school should allow your students to download the 'Education Edition' which has all the same features minus some file format exports and other small stuff.

Solidworks is much better than Pro-Engineer and Pro-Desktop in my opinion and it's what most companies seem to be moving towards too.

Soliworks seems to export fine to formats supported by the CAM machines we have at school (dxf for the laser cutters, stl for the 3D printers etc).

I have just recently got round to using the flow analysis software on Soldworks, if you add it in then you get full control over everything and it is really good. Going to be trying it on future greenpower car designs.

If your school can afford it then go for Solidworks. It really is worth it!

+1 for SolidWorks. I've used the educational edition for years now (came from 4 years Solid Edge at uni) Flow simulation is good - not great, but more than sufficient for GP - stress analysis also fine. Modelling tools are very easy to use.

Biggest issue is the watermark it puts over pdfs - I can't print cad easily at work but pdfs have a huge banner across the page. There are ways round but still a pain.

Peter

sorry to be slow, but how/where can the students download the software for home?

if solidworks can be used at home then there really is no contest :)

I went on the Pro Engineer course two years ago and absolutely loved it. I even passed the DATA accreditation assignment. However my IT department could not manage to get it on to the sc hool system, hence have never used it in anger, and have forgotten most of what I learned. At the time I really doubted that a significant number of students would really be able to produce anything of worth in the time available for GCSE Engineering and /or RMT. We have resorted to using Sketchup. Simplistic I know, but cheap, accessible and dead easy to get started on.
Previous to this we used Solid Edge with good success, but this was also lost by the IT crowd.

We do however want to start using our Denford router's 3D capability, rather than just 2D via 2D Design. Any suggestions of some cheap (free?) software that might enable to us to realise a longterm goal.

We use Pro Desktop - although I think we have to convert the files from one to another to go onto CAM :/

Here's one that you have never probably heard of, but my vote is for Rhino - I find it to be quite intuitive, but of course like all CAD software it can get complex.
- it exports in more or less all formats including STL, DXF, IGES & STP

"Flow simulation is good - not great"
If you add it in as an add-on then you get a much more detailed version of it and this can be very good if you set it up right.

"Biggest issue is the watermark it puts over pdfs - I can't print cad easily at work but pdfs have a huge banner across the page. There are ways round but still a pain."
Students using the Education Edition find this but the copy that school has loaded is a full version so thankfully does not do this :)

"We do however want to start using our Denford router's 3D capability, rather than just 2D via 2D Design. Any suggestions of some cheap (free?) software that might enable to us to realise a longterm goal."
Google's sketchup is probably a good place to start if you want some free software. Pretty easy to use when you get into it.

"Here's one that you have never probably heard of, but my vote is for Rhino - I find it to be quite intuitive, but of course like all CAD software it can get complex."
I know some people who would go for sketchup all the time but although there are man CAD packages (and many free ones too), Solidworks, AutoCAD etc is what the industry is using so is probably best for students to use.
Similarly with PCB design. I use EAGLE generally but also use KiCAD as it's completely free and open source - it does cool 3D board designs too if you add in Wings3D.

Mowcius

Mowcius,

I was using the add on flow sim - I can get estimates of pressure loss in the measurement volume which is effectively drag but no hard and fast drag force values, so no Cd or CdA values for me. Very useful for seeing where turbulence, detatched flow and other flow anomalies occur.

The 2010 version of SolidWorks I installed 3 days ago no longer has the watermark over the middle of the page, it's a more subtle one in the corner - still a pain for A4 drawings as it's about a sixth of the page!

At uni they used to sell us Solid Edge for £15 a licence, pretty steep for what is essentially a CD copying service, but there are ways round for a pound it if you have 14 friends... not sure how that would work in a school as never used cad till I got to uni.

Will Google Sketchup export to CAM?

"The 2010 version of SolidWorks I installed 3 days ago no longer has the watermark over the middle of the page, it's a more subtle one in the corner - still a pain for A4 drawings as it's about a sixth of the page!"
Yeah - I had forgotten the one on the old version was so large!

"Will Google Sketchup export to CAM?"
It will export to many formats but you will have to check what formats your CAM machine uses and what formats you need.

Whats wrong with a good old fashioned analogue MK1 A,0 parallel motion drawing board , set squares , french curves etc etc . I cant help but think theres a bit of " my toys are better than your toys " going on here ;-)

The learning curve is just too steep for me, I could build a new car in the time it would take to learn how to use Solidworks properly. I'd love to try but realistically I'll never have the time and I don't need to use it for other tasks. I have played with TurboCad but never managed 3 D the real bonus for me would be having the drawings stored for reuse. CAD was going to be a retirement project but getting a part-time job at this School and working on the cars at School for two days and playing in my own workshop for the other three that is my retirement week gone, but it's a nice life. Just off to re-make the brake caliper mounts as first attempt was not quite right, would solid works have helped, probably but I would have needed the chassis, wheel and hub all on one drawing and an accurate drawing of the caliper, can't help thinking two attemps is quicker, probably not if I have to make lots but for two I'm happy as I am.
Ashley

A bit of "hand cad" is how most of my ideas start out, but quickly end up in 3D.

It pays off when you start the chassis drawing having measured the whole team, make a cockpit mock up and realise your drivers' "childbearing" hips (her words, not mine!) fall just at the wrong place and it's now slightly too narrow. Update the width dimension in cad and bam - the whole car updates itself. Tubes grow, side panels move, seats widen, the chain now clashes with the chassis tubes...

I couldn't have updated hand drawings quickly enough to identify the chain clash and would have ended up with either a grinding chain, a dodgy tensioning mechanism or a motor 50mm higher than I intended.

A bit of cad, spin it round and spot the issue, move a tube, drawings update themselves, hit print again and the team never need know how much their hips make things awkward.

CAM is a brilliant side benefit of cad - laser cut gears and the odd bit of CNC milling or turning if we can persuade someone to do it save hours of hand work for a part of that quality. At uni we had rapid prototyping and could make one off parts such as air intakes, dashboards, casting moulds etc that we could never have made by hand.

Never underestimate or lose the ability to sketch though - cad is only as good as the inputs you give it. If you can't draw it on paper, how are you going to draw it in cad?

Ashley, if you can draw in cad in 2D you only have two things to learn to work adequately in 3D - extrusions are the shapes you draw with a depth, and cutouts are just negative extrusions. Sometimes you need to go slightly "round the houses" e.g. for a hex head bolt, draw half a section of a round head bolt, make a rotated extrusion using the centreline, and cut the outer bits of the head off to leave a hexagon. Use a table of dimensions that relate to each other and that bolt you've just made can be any length or diameter.

Chassis tubes are built around a framework of lines - no different to analysing a truss diagram. Once you've got the lines in a sensible place, extrude a tube along each of them.

The differences come when you come to assemble parts - you actually put the bolts in the holes rather than just drawing a bolt already in the hole.

For simple one offs, hand cad can be quicker. For a project this size, cad pays off.

And, of course, CAD is essential for A-Level coursework.
Brian

I have an agreement with Autodesk for them to provide students involved in greenpower with their products (autocad, inventor, showcase etc.) via their student community. If anyone would like access, please whisper your email to me along with which team you are involved with.

Regards

Ian

I got a useful snippet of information from John Myerson who is involved with CAD/CAM in schools. It is a method that allows you to export complete assemblies in STL form from Pro/Desktop. I know our team was stuck with this when trying to use Pro/Desktop to design models for our VWT. Could be useful for those using Pro/Desktop.

........

You will be interested to know that there is a way of exporting STL from
Pro/DESKTOP assemblies as follows:
To create a derived model of a design:
* Click Assembly> Add Component and include the design in the assembly
* Click Select> Parts
* Click the component to select it
* Click Feature> Use Component. In the graphics pane, the original
component is replaced by an identical copy. The original component is hidden
(you can see it in the object browser using the Components sort). The copy
is treated as a native feature, not as an added component. It appears in the
object browser under the Features sort, with the name Tool#. The whole model
can now be exported as STL.

We're bypassing ProEngineer as too inaccessable. Is Creo Elements any easier than ProEngineer?????
Brian

Not going to help thing by saying that we were introduced to pro-engineer in year 7 and in year 13 still don’t have full grasp of the software. We can create semi-professional looking products such as tool-box’s and the bodywork for the go-kart but we cant use any of the complicated tools.

Are you aware that Siemens provide ALL Greenpower teams with a FREE academic site license of Solid Edge. I have considerable knowledge of both Pro/DESKTOP and Pro/ENGINEER and know that you'll find Solid Edge easier to learn and use.
Solid Edge has what's called Synchronous Technology: this industry leading technology frees the user from the rigid constraints of 'history-based' modelling.
Students in the US taking part in the Greenpower international pilot are finding Solid Edge very easy to use and are able to create and explore design ideas more quickly.

If you want to obtain your FREE Solid Edge academic site license please contact me (mbrown@siemens.com)

I would also welcome any comments or questions.

Mike,
I've been using a slightly less than squeaky clean version of a competing product for designing greenpower stuff, and would much prefer to be properly legal. There are a few things I'd need to be sure of with solidedge;
1) can I output .dxf drawings and .stl versions of an object?
2) can it import solidworx stuff & translate it automatically?
3) does it do lofting? how horrible is the process?
Cheers
Bob

BobC,
Nothing 'competes' with Solid Edge... Now that I've got the marketing out of the way.

1) Yes you can output DXF and STL
2) Yes. Interestingly Solidworks is based on a key bit of Siemens technology called Parasolid. This is the clever bit of software that does all the maths required for solid modelling. You can open Solidworks parts in Solid Edge and make changes quicker thanks to Synchronous Technology; you don't need to worry about the feature history.
3) yes it does lofting. I hope you find lofting in Solid Edge easier.

Regards

Mike

Mike,

I started going through the forms required by Siemens to obtain our free copy of Solid Edge, but I didn't manage to finish the paperwork! I understand that Siemens wants to gather information about how the product will be used etc, but if you really want to get your product into schools then skip the paperwork and send a disc out to all schools on Jeremy's books with a site licence key and be done with it. Your forms are presently somewhere near the bottom of a very large in-tray!

My school already has a 'competing product', and I could even have a copy at home that was downloadable from the web (student design kit). I dare say that if you get Solidedge into schools with the minimum of fuss (just send it to the GP entrants) then when it comes to renewing site licences for 'competing products', Solidedge would start to get a serious look in.

I do appreciate Siemens offering free software but what you really want surely is maximum exposure to it so that the students learn and stick with Solidedge into the future - keep it simple!

Regards,

Ben

I agree with ben, i got into using autodesk inventor at school and now wouldn't touch anything else, i was forced to use NX for my second year CAD project. I found NX really had to use because of my previous use of inventor. If you want people to use solid edge you need to get them as young as possible, the best way to do that is to make it as easy as possible to get it into schools

Gentlemen,

You don't know how pleased I am to read your comments. Yes the paperwork is a pain and I'm working to address this , I hope to remove it completely. You may be interested to know that students can already get Solid Edge for FREE with no paperwork required, they just need to register at www.siemens.com/plm/solid-edge-student

The Solid Edge Student Edition is available to all students, regardless of age.

We're also working on a few things that I hope will be of great interest to all the Greenpower teams and help make their use of Solid Edge even more beneficial. Greenpower will make an announcement when these 'things' are ready for roll out.

I'll be at Silverstone in April; please search me out.

Regards

Mike

Got a copy working on my 'puter. 2 gig download and monster install (4 reboots!!!!!!!!!)
Now to try to use it............ ;^)